Additional Responses to Audience Questions about Ethnic Studies
On September 4, 2025, we and our partner, Braver Angels, co-hosted a live, online “fishbowl” discussion about the future of California’s Ethnic Studies course. The eight panelists responded to some of the audience questions during the recording, but time did not permit them to answer many of the questions that were posed.
Some of the panelists (as of 10/6/25), only the four who had concerns about the course) agreed to respond to the questions listed below.
Q: The story of a pluralistic America is one of great triumph but also of ongoing struggle. How should students learn about our rich diversity and the struggles many Americans have faced?
Tab Berg: Not as a system where everyone is either oppressed or oppressor - which is morally wrong and historically inaccurate. Curriculum is NOT the only - and likely not the best - method for increasing cultural awareness. However, in the academic setting, accurately incorporating cultures into history, English, science etal, would ensure a more balanced and less politically biased option. It is important to note that the contributions of every group to American History & Culture are not the same...
Nicole Bernstein: This question answers itself to be honest - and it also begs to clarify: how do you know we are NOT currently teaching students about the rich diversity of America or about America's triumph over our struggles? I've never seen any research done that shows we are failing to teach about our country's diversity, struggles, and triumphs. This 'excuse' is simply a ruse meant to fix a problem that does not actually exist.
Wenyuan Wu: The emphasis on resisting oppression and marginalization in pursuit of justice and equity ignores equally important historical examples of perseverance and reform. For instance, during the first decade after the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act, over 10,000 lawsuits were filed by Chinese-American lawyers to defend their 14th Amendment right. While learning about cross-cultural differences and the history of exclusion and restrictions is important, students should also be encouraged to move beyond history into the present. It is important for students to also be exposed to a different perspective, one that celebrates empowerment, agency, and the American Dream. What is common to being American. Are there any basic/fundamental values that unify the American experience? Is so, what are they? In other words, in spite of our differences in race/ethnicity, background, creed, and persuasion, what do Americans agree on? How about respect for the Constitution, perseverance, initiative, innovation, and agency?
Q: What professional development/training/resources have been particularly helpful for educators on the panel?
Nicole Bernstein: The most important thing for you to read is the ethnic studies model curriculum yourself - it is found here: https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/cr/cf/esmc.asp. Example: page 16, under "the main goals of ethnic studies" is the following: "Challenge racist, bigoted, discriminatory, and imperialist/colonial beliefs and practices on multiple levels; and critique empire building in history and its relationship to white supremacy, racism, and other forms of power and oppression. Such as, but not limited to, patriarchy, cisheteropatriarchy, exploitative economic systems, ableism, ageism, anthropocentrism, xenophobia, misogyny, antisemitism, antiBlackness, anti-indigeneity, Islamophobia, and transphobia." Then I would have you read every entry on this substack to see what is going on in real classrooms: https://k12trackers.substack.com/
Q: How do you respond to concerns that some ethnic groups have about being excluded from the curriculum?
Tab Berg: As one of the audience members noted, the US Census Bureau recognizes over 1000 distinct ethnic/cultural groups. It was disturbing to have several "whites have culture too" comments, which came across a perjorative or "lesser than" and failed to recognize that "white" isn't a culture. It dismisses the unique history, culture, and motivation of explorers from Spain in the 1500's, settlers from England in the 1600's or Scotland in the 1700's, or the immigrants from Ireland in the 1800's, or Italy in the 1900's. Us vs Them is always going to produce conflict.
Wenyuan Wu: Identity balkanization is a zero-sum game.
Q: How do students who are NOT typically marginalized respond to the course? How would you want them to respond?
Tab Berg: I think the premise of the question needs clarification - who is "marginalized" and how do you define it? Pop media defines "marginalized" almost exclusively as "not white" - which is a sloppy, racist, and historically inaccurate viewpoint. If you confine "marginalized" strictly to the American experience, it should be defined as any group that came to this country under adverse circumstances AND experienced prejudice from established groups. You must also then consider groups that overcame that adversity and integrated into their new country while retaining elements of their cultural heritage, thus no longer marginalized.
Nicole Bernstein: Web links: https://www.iwfeatures.com/reports/this-california-family-is-fighting-back-against-a-mandatory-white-privilege-curriculum/ https://www.thefp.com/p/how-public-schools-became-ideological-boot-camps https://www.thefp.com/p/abigail-shrier-the-kinderfada-revolution https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/pop-quiz-what-are-your-children-being-taught-the-answer-may-surprise-you
Wenyuan Wu: That's an answerable question, without a clear and workable definition of "marginalization." As Thomas Sowell once argued, "each individual may have both windfall advantages and windfall disadvantages, and the particular combination of windfall gains and losses varies enormously from individual to individual... Add to this the changing circumstances of each individual over a lifetime..." In other words, who is more marginalized? A white student from a low-income family struggling with addiction and dysfunction? A black student from an immigrant family of doctors? An Asian student whose parents barely speak any English and toil in an ethnic enclave?
Q: For supporters of ethnic studies, can you share an example of a conversation you have had with someone who has concerns about ethnic studies (or something you heard in the live event), in which you really see their perspective as valid, and actually helps you see something you didn't realize is harmful about ethnic studies?
[No responses received yet from panelists in support of Ethnic Studies]
Q: For those concerned about ethnic studies, can you share an example of a conversation you have had with someone who supports ethnic studies (or something you heard in the live event), in which you really see their perspective as valid, and actually helps you see something you didn't realize could be a benefit to teaching ethnic studies?
Tab Berg: The student (Samantha?) who talked about how it helped her to connect with the school. We know from studies that connection to school (through sports, academics, clubs, peers, mentors, etc) is significant for keeping students engaged. Studies show that students who feel connected to their school are less likely ditch, engage in dangerous behavior, or drop out.
Nicole Bernstein: Unfortunately, the answer is no - that's because all of their reasons for supporting it are based on emotions and feelings. None of them can prove that students were not previously "seeing themselves in the curriculum." None of them can prove that ethnic studies improves academic results; none of them can explain why so much of the ethnic studies curriculum focuses on negativity, anger, hate, othering, blame, or why they are teaching that destroying Western culture is something that students should pursue. Ethnic studies is nothing more than the modern-day version of Eugenics (https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Eugenics-and-Scientific-Racism)
Q: If these classes are focused on healing, why are there roughly a dozen active lawsuits against districts for antisemitism in the wake of their ethnic studies implementation?
Tab Berg: The lawsuits are only one example of the evidence of harm. Multiple studies of college students (CA also mandates Ethnic Studies for college graduation) show that huge numbers of students (88% in one study) self-censor out of fear of retaliation. Another study showed over 60% answered questions on tests or essays in a way to accommodate (i.e., pander to) the political leaning of professors or TAs - even when they believed the information to be false. This is NOT an indictment of students, but of the leadership and instructors (the same ones who would be training teachers to teach HS students).
Wenyuan Wu: Ethnic studies instructors are not trained psychologists or counselors.
Q: For Wenyuan Wu. Why are you concerned with "an emancipatory education,"teaching students to "seek social justice" and become "politically conscious"? I believe this encourages students to participate in our democracy and to fight for the rights of their communities and those of others, to avoid threats to democracy, and to eliminate oppression.
Wenyuan Wu: What should the students be emancipated from? We live in a great country where personal freedoms and equal treatment are protected by the Constitution, the supreme law of the land. Sure, it has not been perfect. But we should not take the liberties and freedoms for granted. The pedagogy of the oppressed is 100% Marxist ideology. What are so-called "marginalized" students oppressed for? And more importantly, what does emphasizing oppression do to the psyche and morale of students?
Q: For Phil Stemler: When you say students should only get the basics, why assume that teaching the basics and teaching ethnic studies are in conflict? Connecting learning to students’ lives could strengthen their basic skills. And, if the basics alone were enough, why do so many of our youth still feel disconnected from school?
Phil Stemler: I am for providing all students a comprehensive education that empowers students to reach their full potential; I never said students "should only get the basics." However, right now, there is a widely-reported, ever-widening achievement gap between Black and Hispanic students' proficiency in Math and English and students of other races/ethnicities that we must address. Proficiency in these subjects is proven to be important for our students to succeed academically, in the workforce, and function in a democratic society. California cannot afford to leave any group of students behind, and solving this issue is a moral imperative. When we are talking about spending taxpayer dollars and our students' time, results matter. Time and taxpayer funds are finite resources that an Ethnic Studies mandate would consume. I am unaware of any evidence that Ethnic Studies improves students' proficiency in these key subjects, and the one study cited in the California Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum in support of this proposition has been thoroughly debunked. It makes no sense to reallocate resources from eliminating the achievement gap to a divisive, politically-indoctrinating curriculum like Ethnic Studies. In the end, efforts and intentions are important, but efforts that do not achieve real results are a waste of time and taxpayer funds and do a disservice to students who need our help the most. Next, no state law or local school board should ever be mandating instruction that makes one child feel inferior or superior due to race, ethnicity, sex, national origin, and other statuses. That is the definition of instructional discrimination. Unfortunately, Ethnic Studies has already made school a hostile place for many students. The curriculum vilifies people of European descent; look no further than panelist Summer Johnson, an ethnic studies teacher herself, commenting that "even" White people have a culture. Imagine the experience of a White student in her class being told that yes, "even" his life experiences and family history count as a culture. Additionally, the curriculum is widely agreed to be anti-Semitic, resulting in numerous lawsuits, curriculum revisions, and pending legislation (AB 715) aimed at eliminating this issue. Finally, as someone else pointed out, the curriculum creates four monolithic categories of races/ethnicities that lump dozens of nationalities, cultures, etc into broad categories. This over-generalization may also create a disconnect for some students who do not feel they are represented. Based on what we have seen thus far, the Ethnic Studies mandate is turning schools into hostile environments for many students. The potential harms far outweigh the questionable benefits of this misguided mandate.
Q: For Phil Stemler: Since the United States was founded through protest ‚ from the Boston Tea Party to the Civil Rights Movement‚ isn’t protest actually a core American value that should be discussed in school?
Phil Stemler: Freedom of speech is a hallmark of democracy and one of the many freedoms that make the United States of America the best country in the world! I am all for teaching students accurate, nuanced courses on history, the U.S. Constitution, government, and political science that would cover this. However, we do not need an expensive, divisive course steeped in far-left politics like Ethnic Studies to get this done.
Q: I think we can aspire to two things at once - improve education and promote cultural literacy. If Ethnic Studies were solely about helping every student explore and share their own heritage and backgrounds, would it be more acceptable to the folks who are against it?
Tab Berg: 1) There is a significant difference between a politically motivated mandate and promoting cultural literacy. In fact, I would suggest they are polar opposites. 2) There is a great book titled "Cultural Literacy" (I believe the author is E.D. Hirsch) that trumpets the value of cultural awareness and understanding. But such awareness and understanding is far different than promoting a grievance philosophy that portrays everyone as either "oppressor vs oppressed." 3) Multiple recent studies (mostly college students, but some k-12 as well) have shown that huge percentages of students self-censor out of fear - including fear of being targeted by professors, "canceling" by classmates, and even physical danger. We witnessed some of that at the college level when Jewish students at UCLA, Columbia, and other campuses were blocked and threatened on campus.
Phil Stemler: There is nothing wrong with an objective examination of the experiences of different groups in California. I support this aim—our students benefit from accurate and complete courses that include this information. However, we do not need an expensive, divisive course steeped in far-left politics like Ethnic Studies to get this done. We can simply beef up our existing offerings to make sure they are accurate and complete. For more of my views on this subject, check out my Substack article on it: https://philippstemler.substack.com/i/164485645/i-ethnic-studies-is-steeped-in-far-left-politics-divisive-and-unnecessary
Nicole Bernstein: No - this is what history and social studies classes are already doing. Also, public education is supposed to ensure that all American students have the same relative level of academic scholarship and that no American child should miss having an education due to their socioeconomic status. In order to ensure all American students achieve the same relative education, we must focus on teaching the basics - and then allow each child, student, and family to build on top of those basic academic building blocks. If I want to learn about my own heritage and background, I can learn that from my family and community - I don't need a public school to teach me about me.
Wenuan Wu: There is zero reliable and generalizable research evidence that ethnic studies yields educational benefits.
Q: Given that a true understanding of American democracy relies upon the awareness of the diversity of our citizenry, how would any of these speakers suggest we convey that important awareness?
Tab Berg: A true understanding of American democracy lies in understanding the founding principles of those who fought and died to establish our Republic - and understanding the philosophies and writings of those who influence the founders - including Locke, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Voltaire, Hume - as well as contemporaries like Mason, Canasatego, Mum Bett, Hamilton, Jay, and Madison. A point that was made by Phil (as well as myself) is that right now, a huge number of students are not learning at all...
Nicole Bernstein: By elevating our education system to be merit-based and focusing on ensuring all students have the same access to a quality education regardless of which zip code they live in - that is the original TRUE definition of "equity" - equal access to opportunity. That is what ethnic studies argues AGAINST.
Wenyuan Wu: Liberal democracy relies procedurally on fair and open processes such as elections, substantively on the consent of the governed, and culturally (in terms of deliberations) on civil dialogues and civil society. The assumption that "a true understanding of American democracy relies upon the awareness of the diversity of our citizenry" has nothing to do with any existing theories of democracy, democratization, or regime types. Without defining what "diversity" means or what a "democracy" is, such a presumption is no more than propaganda.